by
Rich Gardner | 03.31.2009
Is it like the Great Depression? Sort of, because it's quite serious. Not really, because America has a pretty clear consensus on how to deal with it and some regulatory structures left over from that period that have prevented a full-blown repeat.
I was communicating with a conservative in an online forum and he said: "...common sense and growing numbers of people around the world are basically saying that Obama's policies are throwing gas on the fire. Nobody, no country has ever spent it's way out of debt!" Well, that may be true (Though it seems to me that spending on solid, serious investments would indeed get a country out of debt as a positive side effect of growing the economy) but that's not relevant to the economic crisis that the US finds itself in today. The crisis is more accurately described by Simon Johnson, who used to be the chief economist for the International Monetary Fund and speaks of countries that find themselves needing assistance:
Typically, these countries are in a desperate economic situation for one simple reason—the powerful elites within them overreached in good times and took too many risks. Emerging-market governments and their private-sector allies commonly form a tight-knit—and, most of the time, genteel—oligarchy, running the country rather like a profit-seeking company in which they are the controlling shareholders. When a country like Indonesia or South Korea or Russia grows, so do the ambitions of its captains of industry. As masters of their mini-universe, these people make some investments that clearly benefit the broader economy, but they also start making bigger and riskier bets. They reckon—correctly, in most cases—that their political connections will allow them to push onto the government any substantial problems that arise.
Just as with the S&L crisis of the mid-1980s to the early 1990s, where 747 Savings & Loans collapsed at the cost to the Federal Government of a little over $160 billion, private investors took increasingly risky gambles with their money in the (justified) confidence that the government would bail them out. The group Wall Street Watch put together a 231 page PDF detailing just why the current crisis occurred. Following are their 12 main reasons:
- In 1999, Congress repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, which had prohibited the merger of commercial banking and investment banking.
- Regulatory rules permitted off-balance sheet accounting — tricks that enabled banks to hide their liabilities.
- The Clinton administration blocked the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from regulating financial derivatives — which became the basis for massive speculation.
- Congress in 2000 prohibited regulation of financial derivatives when it passed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.
- The Securities and Exchange Commission in 2004 adopted a voluntary regulation scheme for investment banks that enabled them to incur much higher levels of debt.
- Rules adopted by global regulators at the behest of the financial industry would enable commercial banks to determine their own capital reserve requirements, based on their internal “risk-assessment models.”
- Federal regulators refused to block widespread predatory lending practices earlier in this decade, failing to either issue appropriate regulations or even enforce existing ones.
- Federal bank regulators claimed the power to supersede state consumer protection laws that could have diminished predatory lending and other abusive practices.
- Federal rules prevent victims of abusive loans from suing firms that bought their loans from the banks that issued the original loan.
- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac expanded beyond their traditional scope of business and entered the subprime market, ultimately costing taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars.
- The abandonment of antitrust and related regulatory principles enabled the creation of too-big-to-fail megabanks, which engaged in much riskier practices than smaller banks.
- Beset by conflicts of interest, private credit rating companies incorrectly assessed the quality of mortgage-backed securities; a 2006 law handcuffed the SEC from properly regulating the firms.
No, Republicans are not entirely to blame. Yes the roots of the crisis began on Bill Clinton's watch, but note that deregulation is a Republican specialty. Democrats usually prefer more regulation and trust businespeople less than their friends across the aisle do. Does the Republican Party have any idea how to fix the mess? Well currently, they can't even produce a competing budget blueprint. Republican Party leaders claim that the Democrats didn't produce a competing budget in 2005 & 2006. True, but there was no apparent crisis back then, so that criticism is beside the point.
Does the Obama Administration appear to have things under control? Paul Krugman looks at the plans to spend multiple hundreds of billions of dollars and how it will impact "Mr. Obama’s promise that his plan will create or save 3.5 million jobs by the end of 2010." Krugman states: "It’s a credible promise — his economists used solidly mainstream estimates of the impacts of tax and spending policies." Krugman's worry is just that the stimulus is too small, that Obama doesn't plan to spend enough to offset the jobs that have already been lost. So there are certainly problems, but it appears that our government is at least headed in the right direction.
The economist Dean Baker agrees that the stimulus plan is a good one, but that a third stimulus is needed. Baker is the fellow whose constant refrain, whenever the traditional media touts a "mainstream" economist, is to point out that the particular economist "Didn't see an $8 trillion housing bubble developing (And in many cases, they still haven't acknowledged that the bubble ever existed in the first place)!" Baker adds (PDF) that the insistence of many Administration economists that they encourage the payment of bubble-inflated prices for housing continues to complicate the picture.
The problem with American auto companies is also quite serious, but various bloggers seem pretty happy about the Administration's response. Yes, the Administration is being tougher on the auto companies than on the bankers and financial companies, but there doesn't appear to have been much choice in the matter.
The one really sour, disappointing, hugely frustrating part of the picture has been the response of the traditional media. Relentlessly concerned with trivia, focused on personalities and not upon policy, the media seems determined to not finger the last Administration as being in any way responsible for anything.
The media's refusal to involve the Bush administration in any of a wide array of stories about the economy deprives their consumers of the very analysis of policies that would help them understand and evaluate proposals to address the crisis.
If you don't know where you came from, how are you supposed to know where you're going?
UFPJ-DVN's economics blog
Comments
Federal Reserve?
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 1:56pmAustrian economists insist that by far the number one main cause of the bubble has been the Federal Reserve's pumping of money into the economy and fixing of the price of credit in ways that encouraged unsustainable lending and spending practices. Yet this reason did not seem to make Wall Street Watch's top twelve. Is Wall Street Watch studiously ignoring the elephant in the room, or are the Austrians so far off base that their arguments do not merit a response?
Media:
Meltdown: An Interview with Tom Woods
Author's Forum: Meltdown
The Bush-Obama Bailout Has Permantently Changed the Nature of American Capitalism
Interesting theory
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 2:25pmNo, Wall Street Watch doesn't blame the Fed for any such thing. Dean Baker does indeed discuss the Fed, but more in a "dereliction of duty" manner than as an active player:
Are they right?
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 3:08pmSo...what of Peter Schiff and Tom Woods? Are they right, or are they full of baloney?
Okay, saw the film
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Sun, 04/05/2009 - 5:24pm1. Internet bubble: Lots of people were aware back in the late 90s that the internet was not really a moneymaker. There was a magazine that compared the net way to the old-fashioned way and it was really a wash in a lot of cases.
2. Housing bubble: Different bubble for a different reason. Internet bubble was based on unwarranted optimisim. Don't think Fed interest rates had much to do with the housing bubble. Think that had more to do with the reasons cited in the piece above.
3. Yeah, people could tell that there was a housing bubble because housing sale prices had lost their relationship to rental prices.
4. Not really sure that Bush had done anything to shorten the first recession of his term. His theory was that tax cuts would do it and folks have shown that the tax cuts were irrelevant. Growth is the natural tendency of the economy. Seems to me the 2001 recession, as most recessions do, just plain ended.
5. Good description of behavior during bubbles.
6. The idea that letting car companies go bankrupt because the "creative destruction" is good in the long run is the philosophy that was in vogue before the Great Depression. the whole point of the New Deal was that they had to shave off and cool down the rough edges of the economic theories. Life in a pure capitalist economy was just too rough for the average citizen to deal with. The idea of "just let auto companies fold" is the exact idea behind NAFTA and "Free Trade," the idea that each country should simply concentrate on what it does best and let a single company in Germany take care of all the beer, a single company in Switzerland take care of all the watches, etc. There's a reason Japan subsidizes rice, even though they'd be able to get cheaper rice from Korea. Having ones' own workers have jobs is a valuable thing in and of itself. Getting the best product for the lowest price is simply not all there is to an economy. In that direction lies extreme inequality, with, well...like what the US has been developing for the last several decades, with the very top of the income ladder making lots and lots and everybody else getting poorer. That was the whole idea behind the anti-globalization movement of the late 90s.
7. Investments: Yes, the Bush Administration "investment" was in war and that was a complete waste. No, I don't buy the idea that Obama is doing the same thing Bush was doing as Bush was spending everything on weapons and had his corporate buddies just plain stealing from the American people. Not at all clear as to why buying goods is not an investment as there are "reverberating" economic effects that result from buying civilian items. You buy a car, you can get to jobs further away and get to entertainments. You buy lipstick, you can get a date and the two of you will then spend money doing things out in town. Weapons don't have this "reverberating" effect, which is why Republican spending on weapons doesn't have anywhere near the "bang for the buck" that spending on just about all civilian goods does.
Nah, I completely disagree that Schiff has any valuable insights to contribute.
Thanks for providing the shorter YouTube
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 5:06pmI was looking at that long, long YouTube and longer MP3s and my quickie scan of the Mises website showed nothing concise, either. I did find a criticism of Krugman's babysitting analogy that was completely incoherent.
'Fraid I have to come down on the side of "baloney." These guys come up with lots of great rhetoric, but they're not making any sensible or coherent arguments. The closing argument in this YouTube, that the Chinese are being bamboozled into supporting America, is kinda silly.
Thx...
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 5:14pmThx. Keep us posted....
The Babysitting Articles
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 11:36amRich: Perhaps you can write a short blog sometime on the incoherence of the criticism of the baby-sitting parable. Those who are not learned in economics might not be able to see it.
For those who are interested: Here are the baby-sitting articles -
Slate | Baby-sitting the Economy, by Paul Krugman.
Mises Economic Blog | Krugman and His Economics of Keynesian Baby-Sitting, by Juan Ramón Rallo, translated by Manuel Lora.
The latter is alleged to be completely incoherent. See if you agree. I don't know enough about economics to say, but I'm not the type to dismiss an arguments so quickly. I'm a hanger-onner.
I'll take a look at it
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 12:27pmThe piece I was looking at was actually in the community section. Sure, I'll go through the more detailed piece you recommended.
On the price fixing.
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 3:55pmYes, the "community section" appears to be more-or-less a public forum, and what is said there ought not be taken to represent the organization. I think the blogs and the articles come from more regular contributors.
A quick google search revealed that the author egregiously misquoted Krugman. I attempted to correct this error with a follow-up post.
Even so, I think it was very coherent for the author of the community article to examine the effects of fixing the price of one hour of baby-sitting to one scrip. I don't know if all of his conclusions necessarily follow, but the price-fixing is one way in which the baby-sitting economy is distinct from our American-style market economy. This difference could undermine the utility of the analogy.
How would the baby-sitting co-op economy change if the co-op members were permitted to freely bargain and contract with the scrip? How would the general babysitting economy change if Congress passed a law fixing the price of babysitting services at $10 or so dollars per hour across the board?
Okay, having looked at it...
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 7:51pmthe major problem with the Mises piece is that Krugman presented his baby-sitting service example is more or less a parable. It's not intended to be an exact parallel, it's intended to illustrate some general concepts. Krugman's education continued long after he had absorbed the lessons of the baby-sitting parable.
The primary concept that the parable illustrates is that small changes in something like the value/supply of money or scrip can affect behavior, even when the people being stimulated or disincentivized are rational, intelligent, well-meaning people.
The objections that the Mises piece brings up are kind of irrelevant. The paragraph that says there's only one way to create wealth completely misses Krugman's point. "Wealth" in this case is created by babysitting. "Production costs" simply don't enter into the picture because it was never intended to be a full and sufficient picture of the whole economy in any event. This is like complaining that the old TV series "Gilligan's Island" doesn't have any sexual relationships between any of the characters. It's not meant to. It's designed to serve a simpler purpose.
Yeah, 'fraid that I, again, am very unimpressed by the level of analysis here.
Sorry to be a nag.
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 6:49pmThanking you for being so responsive to my inquiries. I think you have gone above and beyond the call of duty. I don't want to be a nag or a pest or a heckler, but for Paul Krugman's sake, I couldn't let the last answer stand....
The author of the community section post is alleged to be completely incoherent. His main argument is that the price-fixing upon which the baby-sitting parable is based causes complications that make the analogy unsuitable as a model. The author of the blog entry impugns the baby-sitting analogy on a variety of other grounds. Rather than exposing the alleged incoherence of these arguments in rebuttal, it is asserted instead that because Paul Krugman's baby-sitting model is a fantasy of his own, the error of the blog lies in that the authors have analyzed it as if it were intended to sufficiently represent reality. It is further admitted that if one of the preconditions of the baby-sitting parable were visited upon our economy in real life, we would hate that system because it would be unnecessarily rigid and inflexible. Yet it appears to be Krugman's intention for us to save our real world by applying the lessons of his fantasy to it.
Given all of the preceding, what reason would anyone have to do this?
Peter Schiff's "Five Chinese Guys" parable was dismissed as silly. If I insisted that Peter Schiff's parable is a fantasy of his own, was never intended to sufficiently reflect reality, and should not be analyzed as if it were, would that cure its silliness?
Not exactly
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 8:08pmPaul Krugman's baby-sitting model is a fantasy of his own
Not precisely what I meant. I believe Krugman was taking a real model that actually existed, but it was an economic model that used scrip instead of money. The blog post asserted that wealth was not created. Untrue. By babysitting, a piece of scrip was produced, which could then be traded. Was it a one-time thing that was thrown away after one use? We'd have to find an interview or some other source where he goes into more detail, but I strongly suspect so.
If true, what it means is that the analogy of scrip to cash is not exact and the scrip could not be traded any further.
Also, production costs simply had no place in the story. There were no production costs because babysitting does not require anything to be produced.
The problem is that the Mises piece was apparently making the presumption that the babysitting story was intended to represent the US economy in all its' complexity. The fact that it didn't had nothing to do with whether the story was true or not.
I'd have to review the material to re-acquaint myself with the "Five Chinese Guys" parable.
The moral of the story?
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 11:42pmDo I understand correctly that the lesson to be learned from the baby-sitting parable is that inflating the money supply could help spur the economy out of a recession?
Yeah, pretty much
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Fri, 04/03/2009 - 12:41amMy understanding as to what Krugman and like-minded economists are advocating is to get money into he hands of those who will spend it. F'rinstance, if you get money to rich people, they'll just put it into speculative ventures. If you give money to people with lots of credit debt, they'll just use it to pay off bills. If you get it to people via their unemployment compensation or food stamps, it'll go directly into employment-stimulating expenditures.
Basically, all the spending that would normally count as wasteful "pork" is good in the situation that the US is in today.
Peter Schiff's responses.
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Fri, 04/03/2009 - 9:06amOK. Peter Schiff responds to this scenario in the one-hour YouTube video. Take a look if you have a free hour this weekend. Again, I'm no expert. So I can't say one scenario is right over the other, but this is what he says:
People should not now be spending money on consumer goods. They should be putting their money in banks.
The Federal Reserve wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to spur investment and job creation by fixing the price of credit at an unnaturally low rate. It also wants people to spend money now on consumer goods, rather than save it--even though our nation is already in debt on the average. The effect of this will be that a few years down the road, when all these unnaturally induced investments come to fruition, the people will have no money to spend on the goods that will have been produced. They will already have spent their money on consumer goods. At this point, the cycle of debt and inflation will begin again, spiraling eventually into hyperinflation and monetary collapse.
Instead, people should be saving money now. They should be paying off their debts and putting money into banks. Banks will then have more money to lend, and interest rates should fall naturally. This will spur investment. A few years down the road, when these investments come to fruition, people will be able to take money out of savings and spend it on the consumer goods that will have been produced. The cycle of indebtedness will be broken, and the economy will thrive.
Those who have argued against the baby-sitting parable would probably advocate this scenario. Their natural course of argument would be to emphasize the differences between the parable and the real economy and to assert that these differences render it unsuitable for inspiring economic policy.
Gosh, we're running out of room in this margin! What do you suppose will happen to our conversation?
Sure, I'll take a look at it...
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Fri, 04/03/2009 - 11:27ambut it sounds from your description like Peter Schiff is trying to solve two problems at once, the problem of excessively low interest rates (Dean Baker especially blames this on Alan Greenspan being besotted with the fantastical notions of Ayn Rand and her nutty novel "Atlas Shrugs") and lack of consumer demand. Krugman, et al, regard the lack of demand as the premiere problem that should be tackled first.
Major problem with people putting money into savings is that income for those in the bottom 3/5ths of the income ladder has been essentially flat since the 1970s, while a mild inflation has chewed up available income. The result has been two-income families and people working multiple jobs.
As we see in Europe, this is by no means an inevitable problem. Europeans have enough spare time and income, they've actually shortened their workweek.
Are we using anything up with this conversation? Nah, I just hope anybody following the exchange finds it fruitful.
Why is lack of demand a problem?
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 12:20pmPeter Schiff responds to the perceived problem of lack of consumer demand beginning at 48:20 of the hour-long lecture video. It goes until about 58 minutes. He basically says: "Take a look around the economy. The problem can not be that Americans don't have enough stuff. People have too much stuff already, they borrowed money to buy it, and they don't even care about it."
He touches on it again indirectly with the silly Five Chinese Guys parable that comes at 7:20 of the 10 minute video. He says, essentially, that creating "fat" American consumers will not help our economic standing. Rather than consuming, we should be saving our money so that it may be invested in productive ventures.
There is something sinister, I think, about an economic plan founded on government's manipulation of the minds of American consumers to cajole them into buy things that they wouldn't buy otherwise. Demand should not be created. Demand should be demanded. What good would it do the economy to keep workers in service and consumer-oriented jobs making things that people don't even want, or at least wouldn't want but for the government's infusion of money and cheap credit into the economy?
Schiff argues that people working in the service sector should be losing their jobs and moving into production. He says "medicine tastes bad, but sometimes you have to swallow it." Workers should be producing goods for export, and the American people should be saving their money. When people save for things, they are more likely to spend it on what they really want, not just on "more stuff" to pile on to the stuff they already have and forget about.
I prefer Schiff's explanation to Krugman's because there is something intuitively satisfying about the idea of borrowing less, paying down debts, saving more, foregoing materialistic and unproductive expenditures, properly allocating resources to meet real demands, and maintaining the integrity of the currency. How do you explain to someone that the way to economic prosperity is to unnaturally stimulate even more reckless spending?
I think our conversation will be literally "sqeezed", width-wise, until it is a single column of letters! What will we do then?
The machine that satifies all demands.
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 1:01pmThe relevant analogy in the Schiff discussion is the one about the machine where you press a button and whatever you want would appear. The audience gets a chuckle at Schiff's suggestion that if we had these things, the government would outlaw them because they would create unemployment.
The moral of that story is this: We create jobs to satisfy demands, not the other way around. We don't create demands so that everyone can have a job. If people didn't have demands, we wouldn't need jobs.
How do you respond to this idea?
We'll have to agree to disagree
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 2:55pmbecause I think Schiff is full of it. As the saying goes "He's so full of it, his eyes are turning brown!" Sorry, but I think the "issue" you and Schiff raise is a complete non-problem.
Update: my statement is probably a bit harsh. I did state that Schiff had a few good descriptions and he did apparently notice the housing bubble before it burst, but the idea that people spend a nontrivial amount of money on things they want but don't "need" is to place an awful lot of weight upon a very highly subjective term. I just think if someone mentions the "Austrian school of thought" ten years from now, I'll just say "Oh, those guys."
May I copy to my blog?
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 5:22pmThis has been quite productive. I think it's time now for me to await your next article and continue the discussion there. Perhaps in that article, you will explain how the color of an economist's eyes affects the quality of his arguments. My eyes are naturally brown, so I'll probably never be a good economist.
I would very much appreciate it if you would allow me to copy this comment thread to my blog at autofyrsto.wordpress.com. This is a personal blog. I do not write for any publications. I am a law student, and the blog is simply a way to communicate my ideas with my family, friends, and facebook friends. The blog will link page to this page so people can see all the original info.
You have my permission and encouragement to copy this thread to any other blogs and web-sites that you write for.
Thanks.
Aye
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 6:43pmYou may copy & post without restriction.
As to eye color, if you didn't get it, don't worry about it. It was a rude thing to say in any event.
Of course I got it!
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Mon, 04/06/2009 - 8:54pmI was just messin. Thanks for the permission!
Ah
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 5:48pmYeah, it's difficult to snark properly using just the medium of cold print. Anyway, I've responded to the question in your blog concerning Ayn Rand here.
Eye Color
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 7:39pmOh, he got it. You dismissed the guys arguments based on his eye color, presumably brown. No other rebuttal was provided by you. He was pointing this out to you, via a joke.
BTW: You CAPTCHA is unreadable 3 out of 4 times.
Actually
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:37pmin my "update," I do indeed provide a quickie, once-over-lightly counter-argument.
I'll pass on the comment about the CAPTCHA.
If you don't get the "eye color" joke, disregard it.
Parable?
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:08pm"the major problem with the Mises piece is that Krugman presented his baby-sitting service example is more or less a parable."
No he was giving a supposed example of the pitfalls of money and why one needs to change it's supply. Since script is not analogous to money and is know to have problems his example fails. In fact it shows him to be a poor economist as he doesn't even understand the difference between script and money.
This script was in fact analogous to labor dollars and it is well known why labor dollars do not work well.
"It's not intended to be an exact parallel, it's intended to illustrate some general concepts."
What concepts do you think it properly addressed. It in fact fails to model the most simple barter economy, let alone a money based economy.
"The primary concept that the parable illustrates is that small changes in something like the value/supply of money or scrip can affect behavior, even when the people being stimulated or disincentivized are rational, intelligent, well-meaning people."
So you think economics is like religion, dealing in parables with no need for any consistency in logic?
That the quantity of script in a script based economy would effect behavior is nothing new to economists.
BTW, you missed a very important point of the "parable". The quantity of script was fixed. Otherwise there would be no scarcity with all the people eager to babysit. If it worked as you believe then the mere act of babysitting for an hour would generate a babysitting labor dollar (script) for one hours worth of baby sitting.
So you didn't even understand Krugman's example.
"Krugman's education continued long after he had absorbed the lessons of the baby-sitting parable."
Krugman states that the example changed his life and that he thinks about it often. He also wrote the article long after he had misunderstood why the babysitting cooperative failed, so apparently his education did not advance past that point.
"Yeah, 'fraid that I, again, am very unimpressed by the level of analysis here."
At this point I don't think you have understood enough to make any judgment. I am however very unimpressed with your understanding of economics, and of Krugman's example. You are way overestimating your competence.
Any good economist can see the solution to the babysitting problem right away. Unfortunately Krugman isn't a good economist. He doesn't even understand the role of money in an economy, and his example also shows that he doesn't understand why people trade in the first place.
Do you understand why the example shows a failure to understand money? Do you understand why it shows a failure to understand the basis of trade? Do you understand why the example even fails as an example of a barter economy [let alone a money based economy]?
Babysitting
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 8:50pmBTW, you missed a very important point of the "parable". The quantity of script was fixed. Otherwise there would be no scarcity with all the people eager to babysit. If it worked as you believe then the mere act of babysitting for an hour would generate a babysitting labor dollar (script) for one hours worth of baby sitting.
My understanding was that there was no problem of scarcity that had anything to do with the amount of scrip because the supply of babysitting scrip was entirely dependent on the amount of babysitting performed. You did an hour, a piece of scrip was produced. It was used once for another hour from someone else, then it was discarded. I believe I did understand the example, so I'm not at all clear as to why you think I've missed Krugman's point.
Fixed Amount of Script
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26pmNo, there was a fixed amount of script. The whole point of Krugman's argument is the issue of a shortage of script that he is going to remedy by printing up more.
You missed an important sentence in Krugman's article:
That sentence indicates that the amount of script is fixed by the co-op.
Also you can read the original story by the Sweeneys that Krugman's article is based on.
From the original Sweeney article:
There was a fixed quantity of script. Twenty units of script per each couple.
After a while the individual couples holdings of script would vary depending on how much they babysit, or use the script to get babysitting services.
It was NOT the case that the mere act of babysitting would generate script. That could happen in the described "bookkeeping" system but not with the co-op being discussed.
You misunderstood what was going on.
The problem with a shortage of script could not happen the way Krugman described with the bookkeeping system (or if script was printed merely by providing a service). Krugman says:
If script were generated merely by babysitting as per your claim then there would be no need to keep a reserve in this scenario. If you needed a babysitter and with everyone eager to babysit you'd just print up a new script to get your babysitter.
Of course a situation as described by Krugman in his sentence would never arise with your system. The opposite would occur. Everyone would be eager to print up and use script for babysitting services and few would be willing to babysit. Many would quit after printing up lots of script and not providing services. You would have to use bookkeeping to track the creation of script so people couldn't cheat, at which point the script is superfluous and can be eliminated altogether. At which point you are using a bookkeeping system.
Remember the script doesn't say who owes the babysitting. If it did then it would become impossible to use in trade. If you wanted to get babysitting friday night and had Judy/Tom script but only Mary/William were available then you'd be out of luck, unless you asked every single member of the coop who was holding Mary/William script and see if they wanted Judy/Tom script. They might reject you as they don't like Judy/Tom. You might not be able to get Mary/William to take your script because they are holding lots of script already and may feel there is already too much of their script out on the market.
You run into the some of the problems you get with barter if the script is associated with particular couples.
In barter the similar problem is that if you want bread and produce shoes and the baker doesn't want shoes then you have to find out what the baker wants and see if you can find a chain of trades to get you there.
Script also has other problems in common with barter. Just as an egg is not worth a cow the value of babysitting is not uniform. Babysitting on the weekend is more valuable than weekdays while the kids are in school. Babysitting in the summer more valuable than winter. The single mother Octomom (with 16 children) a less valuable babysitter than a single child couple. Maybe your kid is a brat and therefore requiring a much higher price to babysit.
The fact that script was set at a fixed rate (price fixing) makes it actually worse than barter. It's as if barter exchange rate was set at one egg for one cow. Naturally this causes additional problems. In fact this is the cause of the Winter/Summer problem in Krugman's article. Yet Krugman makes the mistake of thinking this problem is due to problems similar to recessions. This is not remotely true.
Recessions do not happen because we fix prices of eggs in terms of cows. If that happened it would cause a permanent economic collapse, not the business cycle.
In fact in the real world babysitting example there was a permanent script shortage.
BTW the cause of recessions is well understood, and has been for over a hundred years, but not by economists like Krugman. It's not because we use labor dollars (script).
I'll go back
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 11:06amand re-read all of it before I comment any further on it.
Having re-read the story
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Thu, 04/09/2009 - 3:22pmI saw, as I suspected I would, that Krugman's story doesn't include exactly how the scrip was issued. For that, I would have had to have gone back to the original Sweeney piece. I didn't miss or misunderstand, I just didn't research the example deeply enough.
As you say, the example merely serves to illustrate some general economic concepts. Kurgman's main purpose is to show his readers that the co-ops' problems were monetary, they were neither moral nor legal nor was anybody trying to scam anyone else.
Yes, one could certainly issue different kinds of scrip for different types of baby-sitting (Weekend vs weekday, Winter vs Summer), but that sounds as if it could get very complicated, very quickly. Krugman's whole point is that merely manipulating the "money" supply will do the job.
Krugman Doesn't Understand
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 8:51amWhat actually happened is that you read the article with an uneducated eye. If you knew how monetary systems worked then you would have deduced from several of the sentences in Krugman's article that the script supply was fixed.
Any labor dollar scheme with a fixed supply of script is going to fail in exactly the way the article stated. They don't experience a business cycle, but instead a permanent crisis. Monetary systems with a fixed supply of money do not experience such a problem.
Only money systems with fractional reserve banking (or some similar system) will experience the business cycle, boom then bust.
I didn't suggest that they issue different kinds of script for different types of baby sitting. That would only convert the system to a barter system with a fixed limit on the amount of trade in each good. Which is still inferior to a system that has money.
Think of the barter system with eggs and cows and also notes that allow one to trade eggs and cows. If you add egg script and cow script you still have to barter the script around. Thus if you have egg script and want butter script you have to find someone who has butter script that wants egg script.
Then there is the whole problem of division again.
You can't have partial script on cows, how do you get change if you go to a farmer with 1/20 of a cow script? You'd have to take the whole cow and give him 19/20 cow script change. But you are really getting a whole cow anyway. The minute you cut out 1/20 of the cow for your use, the part you wanted, you have the problem of putting the other 19/20 on the market. How do you find buyers? The same way you do with barter, you have to search them out.
Issuing more script in fact doesn't solve the problems the way money would. Script doesn't adjust automatically to market conditions the way a free monetary system would. You would still have problems with the market clearing.
Again there is no money supply in the example to manipulate. Nor was there any true recession in the example. The whole point of the article was to deceive the reader the same way he was self deceived into believing the solution to recessions is to print more money. That however is precisely the wrong lesson to learn because there is no money in his example and there is no recession.
It's as if he had used a steam engine as an example of how an internal combustion engine works. They are entirely different beasts. Injecting more steam into the piston of chamber of a steam engine helps it work better, doing the same to a car engine would cause it to freeze up.
The whole reason we had the unsustainable economic boom of the Clinton administration, the Internet Bubble, was precisely because of a price control which inflated the money supply. It's bad to inflate the money supply in a monetary system unlike a script system. Money systems don't need such adjustments since prices serve this purpose. Labor dollar script systems have no prices, and that's where they fail.
Clinton, via his failure to fire Alan Greenspan, inflated the money supply, which caused a unsustainable boom and a diversion of goods and services into dead end projects. These projects started to fail at the end of the Clinton and beginning of the Bush administration.
Bushes response, to leave Greenspan in office, was another mistake, as Greenspan again inflated the fractional reserve based money supply in an attempt to reflate the stock bubble (it was really a general bubble). Instead as could be expected it inflated the housing bubble.
When Greenspan retired he was replace with Bernarke, and Bush failed to fire him as he too inflated. Then Obama failed to fire him in his turn. Bernarke was involved in the original Greenspan inflation and was actually more loose with monetary policy. Both in what he advocated during Greenspans tenure and in the actions he is taking now that he is the chairman.
American monetary policy has been very loose. It is that loose policy that has gotten us where we are. Yet we fell into a recession. This however is entirely contradictory to Krugman's example. How can loose money cause a recession if it's due to low money supplies?
Greenspan and Bernarke are injecting steam into the pistons and therefore causing engine problems. Effect followed cause, not vice versa. First loose monetary policy and then boom which caused recession.
It's always been this way ever since they invented debasement of coin, and fractional reserve banking. Loose money, boom, bust.
Krugman's example is precisely backwards when applied to a money based economy.
If you read that book I suggested you would be one step closer to actually understanding the problems involved. It's well known that you cannot solve a problem without first understanding it. Krugman doesn't understand.
Krugman's suggestion to this crisis caused by the oversupply of money is to, guess what, print more money. Not going to work. This will only cause massive inflation at this point. Our politicians have screwed the economy up that much.
I'll look into that theory
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 12:27pmbut as I said, the internet at first looked to be a source of wealth and people then found it really wasn't. Their ambitions of making a fortune off of the internet didn't pan out. That doesn't conclusively disprove what you're saying, so as I said, I'll look into it.
Thanks for reading what I had to say, hope you follow up.
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Sat, 04/11/2009 - 11:29amWell, Rich, thanks for at least reading what I posted and considering it.
On the internet bubble,
1) That is just the name or label we give the period. It is not a description of what happened. It wasn't purely a speculative bubble of internet stocks. It was a general bubble in stocks, with price/earnings ratios rising to over a broad range of stocks. Nor was it just internet stock prices that crashed during the downturn of the internet bubble. Austrian theory is compatible with a more general rise, and would predict that activities with long term profitability (effected by interest rates most) would tend to have risen highest in price.
2) Likewise Austrians don't need a separate theory for each bubble, nor for the whole host of other effects one sees during these bubbles. Things like the increase in leverage, whether it be a lowering of reserves in fractional reserve accounts, or an increase in the use of stock margin accounts. Austrian theory explains at the same time the low savings rate and high borrowing. It also explains the trade deficit and other symptoms.
2) Just because people think a particular investment is promising doesn't mean that they should act with stupidity. Why is their stupidity clustered? If you go back in history and look at prior such bubbles what do they have in common? Well they all occur after some kind of monetary inflation. Tulip mania, the Mississippi bubble, the South Sea bubble, the Roaring Twenties, the various US experienced bubbles.
There a short 66 page book on the fiat monetary inflation generated around the time of the french revolution. The book is titled "Fiat Monetary Inflation in France" and you will be astonished at the parallels to today. Likewise at the book contains quotes by contemporaries who knew, as I know now, that such monetary schemes have historically failed. They warned and warned and no one listened. Just as Austrians have warned and warned.
3) You claim now that the internet bubble was obvious but during the bubble very few economists were admitting that. In fact, phrases like "new economy" were bandy about. Also claims that they finally had inflation licked and that obviously Greenspan was a monetary genius. The Austrians were the only economic school to consistently claim that it was merely a bubble. During the housing bubble the same thing was happening. Austrians said that lowering interest rates in response to the stock market collapse could only cause reflation of yet another bubble. They called a bubble in housing way before other economists.
BTW there is a bubble in government bonds forming right now. When we run out of assets to inflate with this cheap money the fed will have run out of parlor tricks to play on people. The mechanisms that enable the fraud perpetrated by monetary inflation will have run out, and we will have price inflation. In this case massive price inflation.
I've been pointing this out for a long time. I don't have any idea when the mania will collapse, but it will. It's as easy as predicting that a Ponzi scheme will collapse, but not when.
Monetary inflation via fractional reserve, or via now fiat is not going to produce wealth. That's because it doesn't actually result in true savings, and in fact tricks us into consuming our capital. It also causes us to misallocate resources.
All these effects are explainable by Austrian theory in a mechanistic way. Once you understand the economic principles involved the means by which all these effects are tied becomes obvious how and why all these mysterious effect happen the way they do.
Austrians can do so without invoking any paradoxes like the belief that savings is bad, or that printing paper notes (essentially counterfeiting) is the way to save an economy. Keynesians.
Other economic theories, like Keynesianism, must resort to crazy explainations like "animal spirits", "the Paradox of Thrift", and "throwing money out of helicopters".
Why do commodity prices rise higher and drop faster during the business cycle than consumer prices? Austrians can explain that in terms of interest rates. Why is there a cluster of business errors, and how are our investment errors coordinated to happen all at once? Austrians have an explanation tied to the effects of monetary inflation. Why have prior booms corrected so quickly when government has not interfered? So on and so forth.
In fact, it was Austrian theory that predicted the possibility of stagflation. The other economic theories do not allow for this possibility. To the theories of people like Krugman printing the money is the solution to the problem and should always lead to lower unemployment, and an boom. Austrians understand that this is not the case. That's because the problem isn't caused by a lack of money.
Keynesian theory has and always will be (it is based on the same ideas as that swindler of the poor John Law, and his Mississippi bubble) a theory to justify the plunder of the common man for the banker, and the politician. All in the name of saving the poor.
If you do follow up you have my email, and can drop me a line if you need help understanding any of the theory. I think that it is much better if you read books than that I write them again.
A very important concept to the theory and how the business cycle occurs is the structure of production. A structure that cannot occur in a babysitting economy. Which is why if left alone you do not get cycles in a script economy. A full market economy with fractional reserve banking will always experience cycles.
Questions:
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Wed, 04/01/2009 - 7:59pmHow would the baby-sitting co-op economy change if the co-op members were permitted to freely bargain and contract with the scrip?
Chaos. The system wouldn't work properly.
How would the general babysitting economy change if Congress passed a law fixing the price of babysitting services at $10 or so dollars per hour across the board?
They'd continue to suffer booms & busts. They'd be hatin' life because they'd be using an unnecessarily rigid, inflexible system.
Thanks.
Submitted by Tim G. (not verified) on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 3:09pmThanks for taking a look at those. I'll look forward to future articles!
Sure
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Thu, 04/02/2009 - 4:56pmThanks for seeing to it that I was aware of this group.
Both Democrats and Republicans
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 8:38amIn case you were not aware of this Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were Democrat cash cows. There was a revolving door between democrats and chairmanships of these "private" read government controlled companies. Plus there was a pay for play going on where Democrats were getting campaign funds from them.
In the case of these two institutions it was the Republicans that predicted they were a moral hazard and would cause problems. How could they not be. Investors in either would reap the benefits of their investments if good but the taxpayer was always on the hook to pay for failure. That's from the very start.
Subprime is actually a small component of the problem. The main component was the low interest rates set by the Fed. If you want this to be largely about subprime and MBS then the blame falls mostly on Democrats.
You can watch them fighting regulation here. Government entities are highly in need of regulation. Private entities need to be controlled by laws that are set up properly to link action with consequence. The democrats designed the law here to separate action from consequence and then failed to regulate, and in fact pushed the institutions into risky and irresponsible behavior.
I think it's quite clear that the Democrats were deeply involved in trying to enable irresponsible behavior in the banking industry. CRA being another example that I have not got into.
Republicans are responsible for other minor things, and of course both sides of the aisle tend to vote pet projects for each other. Clinton, and many other democrats were rattling the war drums against Saddam long before Bush was in office. There's youtube video of that also. Many democrats voted for the invasion [you can figure out if it was the majority for yourself].
This is a bipartisan mess just like the belief in WMD and the Iraq War is.
The same was true of Vietnam. Democrats got us into that one. Democrats act like they had no hand it that. They also act like it was the Republicans who dropped the A-Bomb. No that was a democrat. Democrat administrations developed nukes also.
The main culprits in this financial mess, Fractional Reserve Banking, a Central Bank and Fiat Currency, were set up and maintained by both Democrats and Republicans.
Republicans are just as idiotic about economics as the Democrats. For example, Nixon completely removed us from gold [making us fully fiat] and also set wage and price controls. The anti-communist set up a economy destroying communist policy. Luckily it didn't last long.
Both political parties that are in control bear responsibility. Obama is now making it worse.
BTW, by not bringing someone in Bush's administration up on torture charges it is Obama who now owns the issue. He is obstructing justice. Forget the Geneva Convention, there are domestic laws that forbid any US citizen from torturing anybody anywhere. Water boarding is as old as the Inquistion and is also known as Spanish Water Torture. Make no mistake it is torture.
By doing exactly the wrong things now in response to the economy correction Obama now owns the massive inflation, and future Great Stagflation.
Based on my understanding of economics the Democrats have been very bad for the poor in the past (the Great Depression). This will be a prime example going forward.
As I said in my piece
Submitted by Rich Gardner on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 11:25amRepublicans are not entirely to blame for the economic crisis, Democrats do indeed deserve a share of the blame and the list I included does indeed include Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac.
There are many things I respect and appreciate about President Obama and various policies of his, but I have absolutely nothing good to say about his approach to torture and warrantless wiretapping and similar issues of presidential power.
As to Iraq, it was quite clear that Democrats and the press colluded with the Republicans on getting that war launched, just as it was clear at the time that Iraq was simply not a serious threat to anybody, let alone to the US.
The "netroots" are, I believe, taking the right approach, first calling for "more Democrats" to be elected and since prior to the 2008 election, calling for "better Democrats." The recent NY-20 Congressional special election featured a "Blue Dog" Democrat, so the liberal blogs stayed out of it as "Blue Dogs" don't count as "better Democrats."
Democrats Now Insane
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 7:00pmSee, I would have said it the opposite way. The Democrats aren't entirely responsible.
What the Democrats are doing now though is insane. Fueled by characters like Krugman cheering on reckless behavior.
The whole reason we are in this mess is a price control. A price control on the the price called interest. It's obvious that nobody in charge knows what the hell they are doing and we all are going to pay dearly.
I'm not sure what the Republicans would have done if they were in power. Probably the same nonsense.
Try, What Has Government Done To Our Money
Submitted by Brian Macker (not verified) on Thu, 04/09/2009 - 8:56amRich,
We got indented too far, so posting at a top level.
Since you said you were going to go back and reread Krugman I would like to point out one more thing that Krugman fails to understand with his example.
There is a great short book available online, "What Has Government Done to Our Money" that teaches many valuable economic lessons very quickly. Not all but many. Mostly ones tied to money.
Within the first two paragraphs we learn something very valuable that Krugman seems not to grasp in his example.
Krugman's babysitting example fails at a fundamental level because using the script is an attempt to value all babysitting services equally. Summer and winter services are really, as economist would say, "different goods". The script is a failed attempt to value them equivalently. That however removes one incentive for trade, and make no mistake people act on incentives.
Since the couples uniformly value babysitting more in the summer than winter (and can save script for the summer) of course each is going to value script more than babysitting in the winter, and babysitting more than script in the summer. That reduces the chances for exchange. To have exchange we need a difference in valuation.
It is our differences that capitalism celebrates and rewards. It is our differences that allows us to specialize, and makes the voluntary cooperation of trade valuable.
Krugman's example is prone to flaws that are not important in a real world example beyond the mere fact that there is price fixing going on. Where are the teenagers in this scenario who haven't yet had kids and have free time, where are the seniors who might value the money over the time of baby sitting.
One of the main reason this scenario fails is because there is a unnatural uniformity to the actors valuations.
Try Rothbard's book. At the very least you will start to understand the position of yet another side. Not Democrat, not Republican.
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