I am still waiting for the Philly IMC to investigate the sexual abuse going on in MOVE. Instead we get this rubbish about MOVE's "fight" against "The Guinness Book of World Records"

It is no wonder why many people consider "independant media" as not much more than a conduit for press releases from extremist groups.

I ask where is the journalism and why is there a "feature" at the IMC that pretends that there is not another side to this issue?

Kevin, Ramona, all friends:
Stay strong!
I'm reading from Torelló (Barcelona, Spain)
I remember your friendship and your struggle,our struggle.
See you!
My best wishes!

From what I've seen and heard of MOVE, it looks as though, yes, marriage between teenagers does not generally appear to be frowned upon within MOVE, although the ages of 11-12 would appear to be an exaggeration. In Pennsylvania, teenagers under the age of 18 may marry with the consent of a parent or guardian or if they are an emancipated minor. Under the age of 16, the consent of both a guardian and an Orphan's Court judge is required. Pennsylvania also recognizes all common-law marriages entered into prior to 2005, and Pennsylvania statutory age requirement for common-law marriages was the age of seven.

As for pregnancy, a CDC study showed about 137,000 live births to American teenagers aged 10-14, between 1990 and 2002. For American teenagers aged 15-19, the CDC reported 425,000 live births out of a total of 757,000 pregnancies in 2002 alone. (Teen pregnancy rates reported by the Kaiser Family Foundation are much higher.) While pregnancy among the youngest teenagers is often risky, many of the risk factors such as low birth weight are in part due to other social factors as well. Over 80% of all American boys and girls [myself included! :-)] report having lost their virginity by age 19.

Of course, I am in no way advocating pregnancy among teenagers under the age of 16. All I am saying is that it is, in fact, quite common, in the United States as well as in the world.

Of course, NONE of this has anything to do with the fact that the Guiness Book of World Records is misrepresenting the May 13th, 1985 bombing as a "mass suicide" when in fact there was no element of choice involved, at least not for the five children who were killed in the bombing along with six adults. In fact, many sources indicate that those who did try to escape the blaze were fired upon while fleeing the house and forced back into the flames -- this does not appear to be the behaviour of suicidal people.

All I am saying is this: it is possible to state that the City of Philadelphia was wrong to drop a bomb on a private home that they knew had children inside, the City was wrong to let the fire burn out of control until an entire city block was destroyed, and the Guiness Book of World Records is wrong for trivializing the murder of children by misrepresenting and making light of the bombing, without "putting MOVE upon a pedestal."

It is also possible to say that jailing 9 people for a single killing is a sign of faulty judicial fact-finding, and that 30 years is enough time for anyone to be separated from their families, without "putting MOVE upon a pedestal." Finally, it is possible to support a group in the pursuit of such legal rights without subscribing to or even condoning their religion or their political views.

It is _certainly_ possible to support a group in the pursuit of those legal rights without commenting on the sex lives of their children, which is a private matter, best dealt with by the family and, if necessary, Family Court and the Philadelphia Department of Human Services. It is not, however, the responsibility of "investigative journalists" to ferret out, when the relevant authorities are already well aware of Philadelphia's teenage birth rates. Personally, I believe that independent journalists have a higher standard than stooping to smell our neighbors' laundry.

....with Tony Allen. He is one of the certifiable whack-jobs who posts around the internet (kinda like "Bobby Meade" or "Johnny America")....

What makes Tony Allen a little different from the other "internet wackos" is his fanatical racism and religious intolerance.

So far example, he loves referring to John Africa as a "retarded black man," and has also used extremely offensive language referring to Pam Africa as a "filthy animal." He also wrote an article the day after Mumia's birthday "Happy Birthday Mumia...Now Get Your Cavity Search And Go Back To Your Cell"

Lately, he seems restless and in need of more targets for his rage, so has now been joining other racists in his condemnation of Muslims.

He wrote that Islam "is a faith born of warfare, butchery, and terror...Although there are only a reported 2 million Muslims in the United States, the fact that this backward cult reduces women in it to veiled breeding machines, one can expect that even if there were a precipitous drop in immigration from Islamic nations this number will continue to grow, and so too the danger....People like to make the comforting, but self-delusional argument that Islam has been 'hijacked' by the extremists, that it is quite similar to the Bible and the Torah. It is true that the Koran is similar insofar as it is a poorly executed compilation of plagiarisms, but it is hardly the "religion of peace", as has been asserted by the President, and countless others."

One one hand, TA's comments are inarguably biggoted and offensive, as is clear to ANYONE reading this. So readers should seriously question whether or not he is an appropriate contributor to a community forum like the IMC (most other IMC sites completely banned Tony Allen a long time ago).

However, in the meantime, Allen's racist and VERY HATEFUL diatribes serve to seriously discredit the FRY MUMIA / anti-MOVE folks. So, in many ways Allen may actually be helping Mumia and MOVE...

Who knows? One thing is for sure: Tony Allen has some VERY SERIOUS mental problems. I just feel really sorry for his wife and kid.

It is hard for me to take the personal attacks of someone who posts comments anonymously, however when the attacks are of such a vile and factually baseless nature, I think a comment may be in order.

I find it humorous and almost complimentary that the “anonymous” commentator, who is clearly a MOVE and Mumia supporter would have the audacity to label me as an “internet wacko”. That is the ultimate in the pot calling the kettle.

On one or two occasions I referred to John Africa as a “retarted black man”, and I am not wrong in doing so. This may be offensive to those beholden to the sect or have some affinity for it, but the fact remains that it was reported in the most extensive biography to date on John Africa that by the “age of 9, he had been classified "orthogenetically backward" - what educators today call educably mentally retarded. When he was first tested, his IQ was measured at 84; tested again eight years later at age 15, his score fell to 79.”

And in all of my years of writing on the subject, I have never referred to Pam Africa as a “filthy animal”, and I challenge the “anonymous” commentator to provide proof of my doing so or admit that they are manufacturing propaganda against me in an effort to have me banned from this site.

It is true that I have been critical of Islam. As anti-theist I have no particular love for any faith and I have been critical of numerous sects and religions as well as political “movements” from across the spectrum. That the author of the comment would home in on comments regarding Islam only demonstrates their own propensity for deception, not mine.

How this criticism constitutes racism I will never know. Clearly the author has an agenda that misrepresents what I stand for and what I have written and will continue to write. I have no problem debating people about the positions that I take, but when people hide their identity and than hurl out ad-hominem, completely unsubstantiated attacks, I think something ought to be said.

If anyone has violated the rules of this forum it is the invertebrate advocate of censorship who has the audaciousness to call me a bigot, a wacko, and in arguably offensive, and than lie and misrepresent things that I have written. Moreover, if people are to be banned for being “offensive”, than the whole site should be taken down, as invariably everything on this site is bound to be “offensive” to somebody.

Speak for yourself, Rich. If you are going to respect "racist scum" like Tony Allen that is your decision. I however, do not think very kindly of those types of people.

Furthermore, I did back it up, by taking several direct quotes.

In my opinion, you have far too much tolerance for an obviously hateful bigot who has a long history of trashing and abusing this valuable community forum we have in the IMC.

Let me guess, are you white, and not a Muslim? maybe that is part of the reason that you find Tony Allen's statements to be a legitimate opinion. However, there are many people quite disgusted by overt racism (the subtle, covert racism is bad enough), myself included.

Further, if the Philly IMC's influence is going to extend beyond a small group of (mostly white) readership, this respect for obvious racists should be re-examined by others.

who is breaking "IMC" rules?

The Philly IMC guidelines specify that there are to be no “Libel, slander, defamation and abusive personal attacks” within posts.

Yet, the person commenting under the name of “Down With Racist Scum” has referred to me as “racist scum”, “an obviously hateful bigot”, an “obvious racist”, an “internet whacko”, and than asserted that I have some “very serious mental problems” and than accused me of calling someone a “filthy animal”, which I never did.

I must say that if all of those ad-hominem attacks do not constitute "Libel, slander, defamation and abusive personal attacks”, I would like somebody from the IMC to show me what does.

This, while at the same time DWRS is arguing that the Philly IMC is too tolerant by allowing me to post on this site. And using as an excerpt from an article that I never posted on this site in order to support their complaints against me.

That said, I am not arguing that “down with racist scum” be banned from this site. But what I am saying is that if a policy is put in place than it should be applied consistently across the board.

To be branded as a racist is clearly one of the worst things that can be said about someone in this day and age and while I think I probably do have some less than appealing qualities, I find it completely unfair to be repeatedly labeled a racist without any proof to back it up.

It is one thing to take issue with things I have written with regards to my comments on this thread, but the references to articles never posted on this site and the vile personal attacks had absolutely nothing to do with the issues I raised in my comment.

But, what I have come to realize and even knew before leaving the world of MOVE, is that there truly is no defense to be made of the group, in light of the facts.

Hence the personal attacks, not-so-subtle appeals for censorship, and the anonymity of someone so apparently insecure in the aforementioned personal attacks that they cannot even muster the courage to use their own name.

And while it is true that I have been critical of the IMC with regards to Mumia, and especially MOVE, it is because I value the concept of “independent media” and view entities like MOVE as authoritarian sects that contribute nothing of value to the community. I have long argued that groups such as MOVE feed upon the good intentions of people who unfortunately do not know the whole of the group’s history or understand the kind of psychological abuse that takes place within the confines of such groups.

In a very real way, I am happy that the pro-MOVE types have again risen up and showed people that they rely on personal attacks, flagrant mis-representation of people, gross exaggerations, race baiting, and calls for censorship in their efforts to try and silence critics.

Is it really me who is “abusing” the forum? Or is it those who cannot offer anything of substance other than a transparent, nearly hysterical, hateful attack, that betrays the frailty of their position. This while they violate the very rules that they so vehemently claim that I have broken.

much respect everyone.
F&%k the guiness book.
F#^k tony allen.
F%^k this whole ,appropriate discourse bullsh^t.
Sh^t is REAL for some people.
GET IT?
Well then get that shi%t &Get busy.
or get outta the way
-m